The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[the_jos]

I'd like to make a comment on the increase or decrease of the communities 'skill'.

I think over time the difference between very experienced and players with less experience got larger.
Let's assume I get a random group together to GvG and the first guilds we meet are rawr and KDM (or any other top 50 guild). Well, that would be fun for about 5 seconds and then it's over.
Now if the people in those guilds would state that players suck more and more every day based on that experience they are wrong, because it was the first GvG I and my team ever did (GvG for me in ages, first time with that group).
However, if they would look at the number of guilds playing on their level I think they could say that there was an overall decrease in skill.

On the PvE side I've withnessed the same thing. There are only a few high-end guilds and alliances remaining, several disbanded and others went to small closed groups.
The past two years a serious amount of skilled players quit the game or become almost inactive. And it's hard to replace 3 to almost 4 years of experience.

Now there is one thing that complicates this (PvE side).
A lot of the players who started out 3 to 4 years ago were very flexible.
I played with a lot of people who had 3 or 4 different different professions and were able to play all of those well. Factions added two more professions and people tried those.

Next, for some reason A-net decided to make titles.
This caused a fair amount of players to stick to one character, but they still had an amount of experience playing the other professions.
However, new players who started to notice titles would more likely not progress other professions a lot but abandon all professions except one.
A lot of players I've met were developing 'second professions' for the sole purpose of gaining access to certain farming teams. Not to become good players on that profession.

To further complicate this, specially since NF, new players who were learning to play those professions would mainly be thought certain builds. I've had several guildies who were only able to play SF or SH nuker when playing Ele. Water or air? Does that even work? Oh, they knew earth, perfect for terra tanking ofc.

Now what we see is that a lot of flexible and knowledgeable players left the game and that gap is filled by people who never learned to play flexible builds and playstyles.
That's not their fault, it's how GW evolved.
And from that perspective the communities 'skill' decreased indeed.

However, from my point of view it's not so much decrease of skill, it's more lack of experience. That experience that's hard to gain in a somewhat fixed game.
Where the 'best builds' are known and it's all about speed at 'high end' content.

How many players care for balanced gameplay in 'elite areas' nowadays.
Not many I'd say. Most of them either want to play them fast or figure they can't get into a team within a small amount of time and leave.
Because there are tons of things to do in the game....

the direct relation is incentive and accessibility...not difficulty level

The main reason being incentive.
When there is profit, people will be there. When there is no profit, teams will not form.
Well, they will but it takes way too long now. People are not willing to wait anymore.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

...

I'll start out by saying that I see next to nothing in most of the rewards you earn in Guild Wars, same reason I don't give a shit about gold sellers. But that's where you and I end.

The only problems I saw was that ANet - still to this day - hasn't done jack about the tank-n-spank build up and the fact that some facets didn't scale too well to the ever-growing mobs (mesmers, prot spirit).

Aside from that I didn't see much of a problem with it. It's an understandable way of creating difficulty that's been going on for years. Doom? Hordes of demons and fireballs. God of War? Mythical beasts line up to get you one after the other, and always at the same time. Call of Duty? You against an overwhelming array of enemy forces. StarCraft (the campaigns, specifically)? The bad guys already have their bases up before you've even started! In WoW? The guys can insta-kill clothies in one hit!!

But there's one thing that people never take heed to: the intelligence of all those bad guys. The enemies are "cheap" because they're stupid as hell and then some. Anet would have to spend an ungodly amount of working in maintaining an actual "smart" AI, so I don't blame the route they took with HM.

Now to go further onto why all the OP PvE crap is "not gud" (and how it actually relates to this thread!!!!!):

Let's say there's two game modes in a different game, each sharing the same variety of weapons. But in one of the game modes there is a weapon that's going to surpass all the other weapons in the game.

What's the inexperienced player likely to do?
Use the best weapon in the game.

What does he miss out on?
The synergy and use of all the other weapons.

That's what you have with PvE skills, a few overpowering skills in a sea of thousands. No longer are you encouraged to come up with varying degrees of builds, you now become pigeonholed into using a select few. You now become disadvantaged for trying to think of something new.

The situation with consumables is different but no less damaging. They can buff your character to absurd lengths, overshadowing any gaps or shortcomings you may have in your build.

When you lose that, when you have no clue in what you can do to better your character, you don't improve as a player.

There's nothing wrong at all in staying bad. I just don't see why ANet, or anyone for that matter, would want to encourage it.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I don't because the setting is stupid...

Then stay out of it.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Let's say there's two game modes in a different game, each sharing the same variety of weapons. But in one of the game modes there is a weapon that's going to surpass all the other weapons in the game.

What's the inexperienced player likely to do?
Use the best weapon in the game.

What does he miss out on?
The synergy and use of all the other weapons.

That's what you have with PvE skills, a few overpowering skills in a sea of thousands. No longer are you encouraged to come up with varying degrees of builds, you now become pigeonholed into using a select few. You now become disadvantaged for trying to think of something new.

As every other single skill. You can only have 8 so you will use the best 8 you can fit together.

It is not like people were using most of the skills out there.

The situation with consumables is different but no less damaging. They can buff your character to absurd lengths, overshadowing any gaps or shortcomings you may have in your build.

When you lose that, when you have no clue in what you can do to better your character, you don't improve as a player.

There's nothing wrong at all in staying bad. I just don't see why ANet, or anyone for that matter, would want to encourage it.

Consumables are a lot more damaging, really.

For a new player they still cost something, so they won't be using them to do everything. For people that want to farm they will speed up stuff

Then stay out of it.

Guess I could return that to you, but it is a pointless and stupid argument...

And I play HM without consumables and only with 6 (max) Pve-only skills.

Why?
NM is too boring and the titles require HM.

And you know something? HM is just there to double the content

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

As every other single skill...

That would be a bit more understandable if PvE skills *were* like "every other single skill". They're not. They're PvE for a reason. They're overpowered. They need to be balanced in line with the other skills. Players need to be encouraged to think outside the box, not discouraged - that's exactly what happens if you don't use PvE skills.

You are *not* rewarded for experimentation because there's nothing better out there. There's zero - zilch, nothing, notta - reason to have so much variety and potential to just crap on all of it by making a few select skills far better. Soloers are not an exception.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Consumables are a lot more damaging, really.

For a new player they still cost something, so they won't be using them to do everything. For people that want to farm they will speed up stuff

The two - PvE skills and consumables - go hand in hand, and both need to be nerfed.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Why?
Nm is too boring and the titles require HM.

Then here's an idea:

Play with "bad builds" in normal mode, and boo yah you've got a totally different and harder game apparently. You don't have to worry about the titles because, like you said earlier, all rewards in this game are insignificant.

Right?

[Clone]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

1) Are GW players really that bad?

Yes.

2) Could it be that they haven't been taught how to play the game correctly? Maybe they missed resources like GW wiki, PvX and Guru (without even going into the "cookie cutter build" mentality)? Or they didn't have the time, given that it's a game and they don't want to invest much time in it?

This question seems to make the assumption that people should be taught how to play. Its the jackasses who are trying to enforce a specific way of playing that are the problem. The whole "You must run this build or your a moron", only accepting one profession, and other eliteist bullcrap screws up the game.

3) Isn't it rather so-called "good players" that are bad at teaching how the game works? (not helped by lack of in-game good tutorials on many aspects of the game)

Again, this question seems to be based on the assumption that so called good players should be teachers. And while I can appreciate the difference between a truly good teacher and some jackass barking orders and insults, I could go without the former if it eliminated the latter.

[Wish Swiftdeath]

Originally Posted by Clone

This question seems to make the assumption that people should be taught how to play. Its the jackasses who are trying to enforce a specific way of playing that are the problem. The whole "You must run this build or your a moron", only accepting one profession, and other eliteist bullcrap screws up the game.

Would you wear basketball shoes to play in an ice hockey tournament? Thought not. It might be fun once in a while but it's not a good idea when you're competing against others.

So why gimp yourself by running crappy skills? Sure if you don't know better then that is understandable, but if somebody is trying to help you become better why would you ignore them?

It's fine to get bored of the same cookie cutter bars and want to run something different but you go do that with friends that know it's just for laughs.

That is why people get upset, they're working hard and trying their best to succeed and other people run stupid builds or mess around because they can't be bothered.

It's fine for RA and AB because those arena's are meant to be less competitive and more relaxing but when people show up to GvG or for long vanqs/elite missions with subpar builds thats when they cross the line.

[snaek]

Originally Posted by bryant again

Then here's an idea:

Play with "bad builds" in normal mode, and boo yah you've got a totally different and harder game apparently. You don't have to worry about the titles because, like you said earlier, all rewards in this game are insignificant.

Right?

pure win

sowrie i jus had to quote this so u read it again ^__^ lol

Originally Posted by clone

Its the jackasses who are trying to enforce a specific way of playing that are the problem.

its more reinforcing rather than enforcing
the (unbalanced) gameplay mechanics in themselves "enforce" the playstyles so to say
the only kind of player enforcement to a degree u'll see in gw will be in pvp because of player-made metas

but regardless, i see wutchu mean
the reason this happens is because its a team game
if it was a solo game, they would jus lol and move on wit their lives
but since their success also relies on ur ability to perform well, of course they wouldnt want u to be a liability wit ur bad build
so they'll try to reinforce specific play styles

however playing or messing around for fun is a completely different matter, and generally accepted

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Grj

With the greatest respect when i say this, do what alot of the other players have done and find another game to play.

You do realize that many posters here (including me) have ALREADY found another game to play? I simply post here to reminisce about a once great game. While the game has done many things right, I come here to tell people what went wrong with it and how those problems could have been avoided or fixed.

Originally Posted by Grj

Whats this obscession with precieved "skill" i keep hearing? When you make up 1/8th of the party that kinda goes out of the window. Of course they're exceptions to this though.

Skill goes out the window when you are 1/8th of the party? I can only laugh of course...because we are talking about both team and individual skill here. I don't care how skilled you are, you shouldn't be able to get through elite areas without a competent team.

Originally Posted by Grj

When you have the game so figured out of course its going to look like it takes no skill now compared to when you was new to playing the game.

The game is less about "being figured out" and more about Anet giving us the tools so we no longer have to figure out.

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

That's your right ofcourse. Yet a few facts are against you:

1) a massive PvE playerbase
2) Anet changing direction towards PvE (Nightfall and Eotn)
3) a PvE/PvP split something Anet said (during the first years) that it would never happen.

Nobody said kill PvE or stop adding PvE content...I said keep the game going in its original direction. The direction change is what killed the game and my respect for Anet as a company. I could go into more detail, but this would go way off topic and I have already ranted about it in other threads.

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

If they listened to you and the other all right and logical people like you claim yourself to be, this game would just shoke itself and would be in serious decline by now.

Proof? I could easily argue otherwise. Besides, I would argue that the game is in serious decline NOW in the PvE focused world.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

No, the point isn't sinking. I see no point in creating a game where the majority of the population will be prevented to do all of the content. That content might as well not exist.

LoL...you can't be serious. You do know how many games with elite content disagree with you right? You do know how many games with varying difficulty levels (something Guild Wars at the moment basically doesn't have) disagree with you right? Also please read the next quote...

Originally Posted by Zwei2stein

See, DOA is 0.5% of game designed probably for same percentage of people. Isn't it pretty dumb to ignore rest of game for it? Are words 'Elite' really that much shiny? But this is not really about just being able to go to elite are and to have fun or to complete it, is it. It is about ability to farm it.

Thank you for saying this so I don't have to. The elite areas are .5% of the game. The idea that everybody should be able to do an area DESIGNED for .5% of the population or else they are getting screwed is a joke. Should everybody be able to go to Harvard even if they don't have the requirements? Either get better so you become that .5% or shut up PLEASE.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

We're saying that there's 0 point in having the harder variant of an area (i.e. the Hard Mode) being as easy as the easiest variant (i.e. Normal Mode). In such an instance you'd be right: there *is* no point in having a harder variant of it's just as easy the the standard one. You might as well just increase the rewards in the latter.

Again...thank you. I agree with everything you are saying, but I have to point out the part that the rewards should be increased for the latter. Imagine if these elite areas gave out 10000 ectos for a win, the place would be jammed with people and they would be TRYING to get better. The whole reason why the community sucks and the point so many people have been trying to get across...THEY HAVE NO REASON TO GET BETTER SO THEY CONTINUE TO SUCK.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Why did Anet decided to focus on PvE so much that GW 2 became the future?

I don't know for sure. I can speculate. Some other people in this thread and other already speculated some and they are probably right.

Hard mode was bad to the game, not because of the consumables or because of the PvE-only skills, but because it increased the already widening gap between PvE and PvP style of play.

So you are saying that the widening gap between PvE and PvP play is a bad thing? Boy do I agree with you (for once).

But hard mode was bad for the game because it REPLACED normal mode. It didn't do what it was designed to do and create a varying difficulty level. Theoretically only 50% of the population should be able to do hard mode! Instead with the addition of overpowered stuff like PvE skills and consumables, the difficulty of the game has been thrown out of whack and that is the problem a lot of people are trying to get across here. Selfishly proclaiming that you should be able to do whatever you want gets us nowhere, because we are talking about how the game plays not how you play. This is particularly important because this is a MULTIPLAYER GAME...you can't sit here and proclaim how the game should be in respect to a SINGLEPLAYER game because that is not what Guild Wars is or ever will be.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Guess I could return that to you, but it is a pointless and stupid argument...

No you can't return that to us. We are suggesting ways the game and population could be better and you are basically saying "go play another game" just like many people with bad arguments have been doing around here. You are typing long walls of text but you are essentially adding nothing to the thread.

[Red Sonya]

Would you wear basketball shoes to play in an ice hockey tournament? Thought not. It might be fun once in a while but it's not a good idea when you're competing against others.

So why gimp yourself by running crappy skills? Sure if you don't know better then that is understandable, but if somebody is trying to help you become better why would you ignore them?

It's fine to get bored of the same cookie cutter bars and want to run something different but you go do that with friends that know it's just for laughs.

That is why people get upset, they're working hard and trying their best to succeed and other people run stupid builds or mess around because they can't be bothered.

It's fine for RA and AB because those arena's are meant to be less competitive and more relaxing but when people show up to GvG or for long vanqs/elite missions with subpar builds thats when they cross the line.

The above is the prime example of what is wrong with GW and most other online MMO's/MMORPG's. This competitive must win at all costs forget about being entertained or fun element. Too many people attempt to bring "dictatorships" into these games. Others follow suit because many people are monkey see monkey doo's and don't have any creative thoughts of their own and fall to "Peer Pressure". One thing I've never done nor will ever do is be victum to that kind of play or player.

I've been playing tabletop DnD roleplaying games since 1974 and you rolled up your character and you played with what you got, you didn't roll over n over an over again or tweak your characters stats (attributes/skills etc) to the ultimate or optimum advantage. The point was always the ADVENTURE, not about STATUS as the majority of online MMO's are now. Even the online Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 the adolescense powermonger junkies invaded and tried to change the game to powerplay instead of ADVENTURING. But, fortunately Bioware in their great insight gave us the ability to kick these types of idiots from the servers. And that is what is missing and wrong with all these hack n slash online games today. There's no longer the fun of just the adventure and playing with what you rolled. It's got to be optimum stats and perfect players. lol So ridiculous. The really only place this belongs IS in GVG and that alone where competition is a known. PVE shouldn't have any of these types of players, but, unfortunately they flock to these types of games and ruin it for real true ADVENTURERS and FUN loving players.

You never heard things like "you suk or you're an idiot or fool or your build suks" in DnD tabletop dungeons and dragons. Getting to the next level wasn't important either. Running through content wasn't even possible (one of the major big mistakes of most online MMO's today). Most players don't PLAY games anymore, they just want to rush to the end and then whine about there's no content or I'm bored or everyone suks but me and MY build or someone else's build they found online. I have never used a Wiki or online build (that I knew of) and I never will. Every build I have used and every build on my heroes I have experimented and created MYSELF. I've made builds others laughed at, like a Fire Warrior, until they tried it and then it was ewwws and ahhhhhhs and statements like "I never would have thought of that or that that would work as well as it does" which proves my point, most players don't think. If it's not on Wiki or online is suks mentality hahahah.

It was the Game Genie that ruined most players today. Many of the people playing today grew up with Game Genie and game cheats and god mode. They stopped playing games and just rushed through the content. Great for the vendors, horrible for the player attitudes. I watched my son and nephew and all their friends they had over grow up through the Game Genie age. They could burn through a game (any game) in a day and then wanted another one. lol Not a one did they ever BEAT from start to finish. Not one single game. And today I still find them using any means to reach the end as fast as possible. <sigh> This is what's wrong with todays gamer mentality.

you can't sit here and proclaim how the game should be in respect to a SINGLEPLAYER game because that is not what Guild Wars is or ever will be.

Fraid you are wrong here. GW WAS a multiplayer game at one point, but, with the advent of Heroes and powerful pve skills and consumables it turned into a SINGLE PLAYER game. Of course it still has multiplayer elements just like all OFFLINE roleplaying games. But, the turn has been implemented and most people went that route of single player and pugs suk mentality. If you're only counting PVP you'd be correct as PVP is multiplayer, but, of course the majority of the population are PVE players and the hordes of solo players has grown to phenominal levels.

[Gigashadow]

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

You never heard things like "you suk or you're an idiot or fool or your build suks" in DnD tabletop dungeons and dragons. Getting to the next level wasn't important either. Running through content wasn't even possible (one of the major big mistakes of most online MMO's today).

This has more to do with D&D being a face to face game (that you often play with people you already know), compared with MMOs being safely anonymous. I bet you that people of any age who play D&D or table top games today are still extremely polite, because these are played in person. D&D is also primarily a roleplaying game, not a stats game, and everyone knows that up front. You enjoy being a gimpy half-orc with all your imperfections.

I think it is the game type that brings out competitive min-maxing behavior, not that "kids suck more these days" (even the ancient Greeks used to complain about how the current generation of youths was awful, and society was doomed, so this is not a new thing).

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That would be a bit more understandable if PvE skills *were* like "every other single skill". They're not. They're PvE for a reason. They're overpowered.

And obvious statement the year award...

Yes, they are overpowered for PvP, where everyone is level 20.

Of course in PvE a lvl 20 elementalist casting liquid flame at 14 fire magic against a lvl 28 caster deals 74 damage, while a lvl 28 casting the same liquid flame at 14 fire magic deals 160 damage in return (and of course that level 28 will have more than only 14 fire magic).

The problem of the PvE-only skills is that they don't require attributes. Most of them don't even require a profession.

The problem of consumables is that they are a source of buff that isn't related to your traditional resources.

It isn't because you have skills that are more powerful.

If you feel inferior to the PvP crew because using more powerful skills, remember your liquid flame is worse than the pvp liquid flame. And you fight stronger liquid flame

[the_jos]

I've been playing tabletop DnD roleplaying games since 1974 and you rolled up your character and you played with what you got, you didn't roll over n over an over again or tweak your characters stats (attributes/skills etc) to the ultimate or optimum advantage. The point was always the ADVENTURE, not about STATUS as the majority of online MMO's are now. Even the online Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 the adolescense powermonger junkies invaded and tried to change the game to powerplay instead of ADVENTURING. But, fortunately Bioware in their great insight gave us the ability to kick these types of idiots from the servers. And that is what is missing and wrong with all these hack n slash online games today. There's no longer the fun of just the adventure and playing with what you rolled. It's got to be optimum stats and perfect players. lol So ridiculous. The really only place this belongs IS in GVG and that alone where competition is a known. PVE shouldn't have any of these types of players, but, unfortunately they flock to these types of games and ruin it for real true ADVENTURERS and FUN loving players.

Red Sonya,

It's not only about the powermonger junkies, perfect players, adcenturers and fun loving players.

When you set down your DnD you don't know what will happen (I never played it, but my brother did). Today's game will never be the same as anything you ever played before. And anything you will do in the future. There is no fixed end, no goal to achieve.
Now compare this to GW. There are some areas where I would be able to give a complete tourguide: "and on the right you see Rurik rush himself to death against some devourers which will pop up in 5 seconds from now".
You know the endings of each story once you played them. And things will not change.
There is still room to adventure, even on my main I have sidequests that are still open. So I didn't adventure the entire game yet, so to speak. But once I did, there is no reason to do it again, things will not change.
It's not that I can refuse to free Palawa Joko and by that preventing GW2 to happen.

Next, years ago there were only a few places where builds did matter.
The places that were farmed. And builds only mattered in farming teams.
Nowadays in most Normal Mode content this still holds. Though there are some missions that are hard to complete without certain skill-abilities.

But something else changed, making people wanting to complete stuff as efficient as possible.
With the additional chapters we got more content, more room to adventure. But at a certain point we got something else. Say hello to titles, bound to individual characters. There are tons of them, so we better make sure we do everything just once, as efficient as possible.
Before that it didn't matter that it took half an hour to form a team. Nowadays it does because it's half an hour not spend on maxing a title (except drunk and only if you have plenty of cash).

Farming is more common now, for some reason it's very important to gain a massive amount of wealth.
Not because it's required to play the game, but because it's important to show e-peen for some reason.
And farming needs to be as efficient as possible.

Efficiency is also the reason many players play in small teams, H&H or 2/3 humans + heroes.

However, what I describe is only a small part of the community.
I think the vast majority of the players are far more the common players who just play for fun, do some stuff, fail once in a while and learn from it.
You will never hear or see them, they play alone or PUG along, something the more established titlehunting players stopped to do (PUG=fail and not efficient). They don't visit fan sites, don't use wiki, they adventure through the game. Wonder what's behind the next corner. If another foe will pop-up when they make the next step.
But we don't see them, they are playing everywhere except where we play. Because there is no way of telling there are randoms who might be willing to play D'Alessio Seaboard with us but at the moment one of them is adventuring NF, someone else is beating up Shiro and the third player is selling something in LA.
So I end up with an empty outpost thinking everyone left the game and there is no-one willing to adventure with me.

I think those two things: titles and no way of letting others know you want to play XXX without being there or in a major outpost contribute far more to the lack of 'adventuring' than a specific kind of player drawn to this game.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

It was the Game Genie that ruined most players today. Many of the people playing today grew up with Game Genie and game cheats and god mode. They stopped playing games and just rushed through the content. Great for the vendors, horrible for the player attitudes. I watched my son and nephew and all their friends they had over grow up through the Game Genie age. They could burn through a game (any game) in a day and then wanted another one. lol Not a one did they ever BEAT from start to finish. Not one single game. And today I still find them using any means to reach the end as fast as possible. <sigh> This is what's wrong with todays gamer mentality.

Your are making our point for us. PvE skills and consumables (and other overpowered skills in the game) are essentially equivalent to game genie. They should not be in the game due to all of the reasons you specify.

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Fraid you are wrong here. GW WAS a multiplayer game at one point, but, with the advent of Heroes and powerful pve skills and consumables it turned into a SINGLE PLAYER game. Of course it still has multiplayer elements just like all OFFLINE roleplaying games. But, the turn has been implemented and most people went that route of single player and pugs suk mentality. If you're only counting PVP you'd be correct as PVP is multiplayer, but, of course the majority of the population are PVE players and the hordes of solo players has grown to phenominal levels.

Wrong. Guild Wars is and always will be multiplayer REGARDLESS of how you or anybody else plays. That is the the logical error that some people are going with in this thread. Just because you play by yourself and refuse to acknowledge other people doesn't mean the game all of the sudden is a single player game. That is the selfish attitude that doesn't look at the game as a whole but only ones own individual playing style.

[zwei2stein]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The questions are:

-How many people are farming those?

-Does farming have any impact in the balance of the game?

...

Do you want to stop DoA farm, I don't know why it is a problem to you but never mind, nerf the tank skills. Prevent consumable stacking.

Farming is not a problem. People want shiny chit, they can have it.

It is symptom of difficulty. If area is fully farmable it means:

* There is build that can clear it with minimal danger.
* That build is easy enough to run to allow credential-less pugging or pugging where criteria of joining is high enough title x.

Which in turn means that area has turned to joke challenge-wise. That is why farming elites is whined about.

-Do I require 7 other people to do those or can I do those areas with other person and 6 heroes or alone with 6 heroes, using 2 accounts?

-Are NM "Elite missions" supposed to be completed by everyone since we have HM "Elite missions"?

* 8 humans required? No. Ballanced for? Yes. 6 Heroes + Human or two have different kind of strength anyway and can be considered equal.

* NM? They should be completed by anyone competent. Everyone should be able to become competent enough with some effort. You average player should not expent to finish FoW by joining random pug. But he should very much except to finish it when playing with few friends who he is used to and with which he can cooperate.

[kostolomac]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Aside from that I didn't see much of a problem with it. It's an understandable way of creating difficulty that's been going on for years. Doom? Hordes of demons and fireballs. God of War? Mythical beasts line up to get you one after the other, and always at the same time. Call of Duty? You against an overwhelming array of enemy forces. StarCraft (the campaigns, specifically)? The bad guys already have their bases up before you've even started! In WoW? The guys can insta-kill clothies in one hit!!

There are 3 major differences between GW HM and increased diffictulties in those games except WoW:
1.The genre
Different genre, different way of implementing harder difficulties;

2.The reason why they are implemented:
In those games , the increased difficulties don't give increased rewards, the only reward is the enjoyment of defeating the opponent/completing the task,GW HM has more/better drops and titles. GW HM is there to keep players busy grinding stuff for HoM until GW 2;

3.They way they are implemented:
In most games enemies in the harder difficulties are given advantages that can be earned by the player too (except numbers maybe) and don't go against the game design. In starcraft you can build a base like the enemies can, get the enemies weapons in Call of Duty (at least in CoD2), in GW the enemies have advantages that break the game design. How would you feel if the enemies in CoD had weapons that could shoot through walls, homing rockets that pass through any terrain, or units in starcraft that are 2 or 3 times more powerful that any unit you can build?

GW HM (or any part of PvE for that matter) isn't a place to get very good at the game, you can only learn a limited amount in pve , it's a place to grind titles, money, or just enjoy it with 1-7 more people.

[CHannum]

Originally Posted by kostolomac

In most games enemies in the harder difficulties are given advantages that can be earned by the player too (except numbers maybe) and don't go against the game design.

Going to call shenanigans on this statement. The games that have avoided outright cheats for the AI on harder difficulties is almost certainly but a single digit percentage of games offering more than lowest common denominator difficulty settings (and I would add that the number of these games that done so to the satisfaction of the hardcore gamers is a considerably smaller percentage). Even in games where the devs have made their intention to not violate the game design paramount (the Galactic Civ series comes to mind), inevitably, as a certain amount of the player base demands even harder challenges, rule breaking "AI cheats" become the only solution. The difficulty and challenge of implementing better enemy AI exceeds the ability to deliver challenge to this relatively small amount of your player base and devs have little choice to either offer nothing or offer "AI cheats".

My experience is that devs never win in this arms race. When they offer increased difficulty via inherent advantages (aka cheats) for the AI, you wind up with two camps of detractors. One camp screams about how the AI is cheating, which either is unfair because it's too hard or they are simply outraged on principle. The other camp screams about how the AI is still braindead and still too easy. When they pour in the resources to tweak the bejesus out of enemy AI, you wind up with two camps of detractors. One camp screams about how the game is too hard (even though nothing stops them from playing on a lower difficulty). The other camp screams about how the enemy AI is still brain dead and still too easy.

The devs cannot win at this and, furthermore, I have seen little evidence that playing against AI in any game does more than give you a mid level skill set for playing against (or with) human beings. Regardless of how good or bad the enemy AI is at a game, it does very little for preparing one for the variability of humans.

[pingu666]

i did pug my way through the later half of nightfall recently, and it does give a richer experience, both pleasure and pain...

i think hardmode has fundimentaly some bad mechanics to it, and titles, heros have removed the insentive to pug, because you can just roll out the perfect hero half the time

[kostolomac]

Originally Posted by CHannum

The devs cannot win at this and, furthermore, I have seen little evidence that playing against AI in any game does more than give you a mid level skill set for playing against (or with) human beings. Regardless of how good or bad the enemy AI is at a game, it does very little for preparing one for the variability of humans.

That is my point.
That's why I don't see the point in nerfing stuff in pve because it won't increase skill. Skills should be balanced to give more viable options when playing. Of course some skills need to be nerfed (SY! and SF), and some looked in (spiking with CoP).
About cons, I think they should reduce the duration and give something like the summoning sickness.

[Bryant Again]

Whoops, hit the reply button way too soon:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And obvious statement the year award...

Yes, they are overpowered for PvP, where everyone is level 20.

And they're overpowered in PvE because:

-AI is retarded (and if you think you need a boost against it you're just as equally bad)
-Vastly superior to numerous other skills

And you already pointed out why consets are bad, so yeup let's nerf both, soldia!

Originally Posted by Improvavel

1.The genre
Different genre, different way of implementing harder difficulties;

2.The reason why they are implemented:
In those games , the increased difficulties don't give increased rewards, the only reward is the enjoyment of defeating the opponent/completing the task,GW HM has more/better drops and titles. GW HM is there to keep players busy grinding stuff for HoM until GW 2;

3.They way they are implemented:
In most games enemies in the harder difficulties are given advantages that can be earned by the player too (except numbers maybe) and don't go against the game design. In starcraft you can build a base like the enemies can, get the enemies weapons in Call of Duty (at least in CoD2), in GW the enemies have advantages that break the game design. How would you feel if the enemies in CoD had weapons that could shoot through walls, homing rockets that pass through any terrain, or units in starcraft that are 2 or 3 times more powerful that any unit you can build?

1. Guild Wars is not an exception, as seen below.

2. Eh? There was very little content to "grind" at its release, and I think balancing PvE skills and consets would make people "grind" longer, ja?

3. You may get the enemies weapons in CoD4, but you can't get the same amount of health and/or damage dealing ability and you are *always* against the odds. If it were to be "balanced" in the same sense as GW, each fight would be a one on one.

In Guild Wars, the enemies have largely overpowered stuff because that's the only way they could provide difficulty without an inhuman amount of man hours and ability. They're not "cheap" (as I stated above) because they're not in the hands of a human, they're in the hands of idiots.

I would not feel disadvantaged if the units in SC started building insane units because I'm human: I adapt. Just like how I don't feel disadvantaged towards an insane number of enemies, or the bad guys in GW.

[kostolomac]

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

3. You may get the enemies weapons in CoD4, but you can't get the same amount of health and/or damage dealing ability and you are *always* against the odds. If it were to be "balanced" in the same sense as GW, each fight would be a one on one.

You missed the point #1 I made, different genre, different way of increasing difficulty while still keeping the game enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In Guild Wars, the enemies have largely overpowered stuff because that's the only way they could provide difficulty without an inhuman amount of man hours and ability. They're not "cheap" (as I stated above) because they're not in the hands of a human, they're in the hands of idiots.

So this justifies giving extremely stupid buffs to mobs? Just giving the mob groups decent builds that work together without the current buffs and monster skills would be several times more difficult to beat that HM now, the charr and stone summit are a nice example.

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I would not feel disadvantaged if the units in SC started building insane units because I'm human: I adapt. Just like how I don't feel disadvantaged towards an insane number of enemies, or the bad guys in GW.

Neither do I, but I'm not enjoying myself when I beat them, and don't learn anything either.

Just to make myself clearer: ANet did a bad job with HM because they made it keep people playing for titles and more loot and not so much for other reasons. Other games have difficulty settings so that the user can enjoy the game more based on his preference, and the rewards are always the same (in some games you are rewarded with even less than in NM or EM).
If people want to learn how to play GW really good they must do pvp, pve can only teach you a limited amount, and in HM you forget some stuff.